Serial Numbers  - Condition -  Viewfinders

Lenses (incl. Coated & Uncoated)  -  Apertures - Shutters

Agfa cameras in particular

Googling for information  -  Sources of restored folders

How to make bidders lose confidence

Getting the description right:

To be fair, buyers, and in particular, buyers who know their cameras, will know what you mean. But, from your point of view, incorrect spellings or descriptions in the headings will mean your camera may not be picked up by searches and inadequate, incomplete or incorrect descriptions can be misleading and may lead to unnecessary questions and, most importantly, undermine a buyer's confidence in you. Sellers who do it right (e.g. petrakla, certo6, beedhams, fannyb1, brian4242, etc) get top prices for their cameras. Buyers have confidence in them and, no doubt, many have them in their favourite sellers list. So, with that in mind, let's start with some .......

Descriptive words:

To begin with, this:     ...... is a folding camera, not a "Foldout Camera".

(nor is it, as the seller listed this Kodak:    a "vintage folding pull box camera", going on to describe it as a "Vintage Box pull camera, kodak 620 film, has a glass lense" ) Wonderful! (ed. note: undoubtedly a glass lens as plastic lenses weren't invented until the early '60's)

SIX 20 KODAK  JUNIOR DE-LUXE CAMERA IN EXCELLENT CONDITION WITH CASE - TELESCOPIC FRONT!

a Kodak expanding camera!

What makes it a folding camera (expanding or otherwise) is not a ‘concertina’ or ‘folding paper’ or a 'fold out bit' or a 'telescopic front' but a ‘bellows’ (...... and note that that's two ‘l’s, not one).

Nor is it (as seen recently on several US listings) a 'billows' or a 'billow' camera.

e.g.  Item number: 280265058920 ................ Kodak Billow Camera 1920's with View Finder:

with ....... "No rips in billows"

 

And also note that a 'bellows' is always plural, never singular. One ‘l’ makes for a different word: namely ‘below’ e.g. as in 'below the belt' or ‘Fire down below’. If  'Below' doesn’t make sense, then the oft-seen 'Belows' makes even less sense, if that's possible. It's not even a recognised word.

There again: as it says on this YouTube video: "Click bellow for the official version."

You've got to admit: this spelling is oh-so tricky!

(She's got a lot going for her, but I don't think a bellows is one of them)

~ ~ ~

All of this nicely leads us into spellings, so let's move on:

This .....    .....is a lens ..... not a lense (the plural of lens is lenses - 'lense' is a non-word) ....... nor is it a 'lenz' .........  nor is it a 'lends' (that being what a bank does for you when you borrow money from them!)

e.g. Item number: 380059051214       

"Unfortunately it has suffered some damage - the main LENDS has an internal glass fracture at the bottom."

And here's another all too common mis-spelling, here found describing a .....

:

THE RED BELLOWS ARE INTACK   (i.e. 'intact')

(the I.B.T. referred to are the shutter settings, which the seller has misinterpreted as the model name)

~ ~ ~

and now for another of my favourites:

Unusual accessory or: how a single mistaken letter can change the meaning of what we write THIS IS MY RETINA 1B WHICH HAS BEEN IN THE FAMILY FOR MANY YEARS AND TAKEN MANY PICTURES. THE CAMERA COMES WITH MANUEL. Manuel:  a character in Fawlty Towers: a waiter played by Andrew Sachs, a well-meaning but disorganised and constantly confused Spaniard from Barcelona with a poor grasp of the English language and customs. He is verbally and physically abused by his boss. or ...... could it be that he meant: Manual: a handy book of instructions. (manual from the Latin 'manus': hand) I'll leave you to decide! (P.S. sorry to disappoint but it's not a Retina 1B but the earlier 1b. The 1-big-B has a lightmeter. See mine here.)

Correctly naming your camera:

Take care to copy the name of camera accurately. This is especially important in the listing heading. Spell it wrong there and ebay searches won't find it. And that means buyers can't find it.

All the following mis-spellings are from actual ebay listings:

It's Zeiss NOT Ziess OR Zuiss ...... Ikonta NOT Ikonia OR Iconta ...... Zuiko NOT Zcuiko.

It's Kodak NOT Kodax ....... Eastman NOT Eastham or Easterman ........ Brownie NOT Brownis, Browni OR Browning!

A Nollenda Negel ....... would that be Nagel Vollenda, by any chance?

     an Agfa Redcord III !   (Agfa RECORD III) !

(to be fair to the seller he did subsequently correct this one!)

then there's the Agfa Issolette 2 Folding Rollfilm Camera 

and the Isosette .......   As we can clearly see dual viewfinder windows, indicating a rangefinder, it is undoubtedly an Isosette III.

(Spelling the Isolette's maker Agpha will certainly get people's attention. Fortunately, since one turned up in an 'Agfa' search we learn that the ebay is programmed to read 'ph' as 'f'.)

This is a vintage iron  .........   this is a modern iron .......

and this, dear reader........  .......... is a Zeiss IRON!

(i.e. Zeiss Ikon ....... dyslexia rules OK?)         

And, most importantly, is Voigtlander NOT Voightlander (a mis-spelling so common that ebay search recognises it!)

Nor, for that matter, is it Voitlander, Voiglander, Voighander, Voightander, Yuighander, Vigtlander, Yuighlander, Voigalander,  Joigtlander, Voiuglander, Yoigflander, Yvighander, Voigkander, Vuigtlander, or Highlander. (Yep, that's right ...... I kid you not: Highlander!)

(the above list is taken from 'my collection of Voigtlander mis-spellings' which is all too frequently added to!)

Read your camera:

I've seen an 'I don't know what it is' camera with 'Super Baldax' embossed in the leather and clearly visible in the photograph. Other frequent 'don't knows' are 1920's Voigtlander plate cameras. So, it's useful to know that those cameras (Vag, Avus or Bergheil) have their names embossed in the carrying strap.

If there's no name on the camera be sure to state the lens. This often suggests a likely maker. For example: if it's Voigtar, Skopar or Heliar it's a Voigtlander. If it's Agnar, Apotar or Solinar is an Agfa. However, Schneider-Kreuznach Radionar and Xenar are fitted to many makes and models. Nevertheless, it is a measure of quality and worth stating.

Pre-empting the questions:

It's as tiresome to have to e-mail sellers and ask for the basic information as it is for you, the seller, to have to answer them. Questions like: ‘Which lens has it got?’ and/or ‘Which type of shutter does it have?’. You can be sure you’re dealing with a ‘I know nuffink about cameras’ seller when he describes a camera as a ‘Prontor’ camera. Which leads us to:

The Prontor II camera and the Compur lens:

the ubiquitous "Vintage Agfa Prontor 11 folding camera with case"

It’s understandable because ‘Prontor II’ is written in big white letters on the front – but, so have they all – well, an awful lot of them, anyway. You need to narrow the field a bit! There is no such thing as a 'Prontor' camera!

Not knowing that it's called an 'Agfa Billy' Record (its name isn't on it, hence the confusion) but some or all of "1930's Art Deco 6x9 Agfa folding camera with Apotar lens" would be appropriate. With Prontor II shutter, of course!

And if only to make my point, here are two others: 

Ihagee Auto Ultrix Zweiformat Folding Camera Prontor II Lens (in reality a Schneider Radionar lens)

VINTAGE BALDA PRONTOR II FOLDING CAMERA (also, as it happens, with a Schneider Radionar lens)

F. Deckel-Munchen Compur 120 Film Camera   (its unusual f4.5 Laack Regulyt lens lead the search to the Beirax Stelo as the most likely candidate, although this has yet to be confirmed)

 

ZECA CAMERA with f4.5 10.5 cm COMPUR LENS (an uncommon camera fitted with the desirable Zeiss Tessar lens. Seller needed to say so in the listing heading.)

 

the above examples illustrate how camera makers sourced their lenses and shutters from specialist manufacturers  

just as, today, your Panasonic digital camera has a Leica Vario Elmar lens:

~ ~ ~

The Box Camera confusion

It may seem odd to include box cameras and TLR's in this, but I have seen 1920's plate cameras described as a box camera (example below). Understandable, perhaps, as they do become a square cornered box when closed up. Nevertheless, it has a bellows lens extension, so it's a folding camera. This should clear this up: 

not a box camera not a TLR   not a box camera either a twin lens reflex (TLR) (here a Rolleiflex 3.5F) in which, when the focussing knob is turned, both viewing and taking lenses move as one to facilitate accurate focussing.   the Voigtlander Brilliant. Even if fitted with an excellent lens and shutter as this one is, most are non-foccussing and so, in reality, it's nothing more that a sophisticated box camera! an early Rolleicord which the Voigtlander Brilliant successfully mimics. But this is a true TLR - the viewing and taking lenses move as one for accurate focussing.     an actual Agfa Box camera hint: looks like a box! mis-described Agfa 'Box' camera: a late 1920's Agfa Standard plate camera

Serial numbers:

First, since we've mentioned TLR's:  Rolleiflex sellers will so-ooo conscientiously tell you the serial numbers on the lenses but not the number you want to know: i.e. the camera serial number - which is engraved above the name plate. Knowing that enables you to identify the model and date of manufacture.

(Yes, yes, I know: Rolleiflex is a TLR not a folder, but I'm making a point here about giving the right information)

Similarly, Voigtlanders can be dated using the lens number here

and Schneider-Kreuznach lenses also can be dated here  (so, if the Rollei has a Xenar lens, the lens number will do!). With so many makers using S-K lenses that link is really useful should you want to date your camera.

Condition

The truth is that the age has little to do with the condition. Most cameras, and certainly most folding cameras, would have been replaced within ten years or less. Cameras were very expensive relative to income, so if you had the money to buy one in the first place, you'd probably have the money to upgrade to the next model when it came along. Nothing changes! Furthermore, with the onslaught of Japanese SLR's in the '60's, most photographers switched to 35mm to get three times the number of shots per film, along with through-the-lens focussing and metering, as well as interchangeable lenses. And so cameras like the Isolette, below, became obsolete in vast numbers after only a few years use. Years in which they'd had very few films through them. After which they were put away in a cupboard or the loft and forgotten. Not surprising then, half a century later, that we find most of them in such excellent condition. They'd hardly been used!

So, the often seen statement: "Good condition for age" is largely meaningless. If, like the example of the seller below, you're no expert in cameras ....... how would you know? And the most commonly mis-used description is ...... mint!

Description: Here for sale we have a German made Agfa Isolette II in original case

I am no expert on cameras but as you can see this is in Mint Condition.

Oh no it's not! 'Mint' means that it's as it was straight out of the factory, still in its original packaging, untouched by human hand. Dust it for fingerprints and you won't find any. 'Mint-' ('mint minus') means it's like 'Mint', but has been taken out of the packet and handled and perhaps even put on display in a shop. It's a debatable argument whether Mint- allows for being operated to demonstrate it to a customer. 'New' means as bought from a shop:- i.e. it will, most likely, have been handled but will not have had a film though it. Once it leaves the shop it naturally progresses into the Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair categories, although many dealers sub-divide 'Excellent' into Exc++, Exc+ and Exc, perhaps because they only deal in top quality equipment and need to differentiate between minor differences.  In effect Exc++ might look the same as Mint- to look at, but has been used, regardless of how much or how little.

As 'beedhams' comments in his guide: "it's likely that most truly 'Mint' condition cameras are already in the hands of collectors!"

Perhaps we should commend Ffordes of Inverness for simply using 'Signs of use', 'Slight signs of use' and 'Obvious signs of use' . Much easier! Although to judge by some old timers seen on ebay we'd need to expand the list to 'Signs of heavy use', and 'Gross signs of use'. Or should that be 'Gross signs of mis-use'?

Viewfinders:

And then there’s viewfinders. I remember having to ask a 30’s Bessa seller which viewfinder it had. I had to ask because he put up only one photo, taken of it in long shot, showing it’s right-hand side. An open-frame viewfinder is the 1935 model, pop-up viewfinder is the 1937 model. Got back a terse reply complaining about “so many questions from all around the world for a camera worth only £20” (or so he thought!). But who’s fault’s that? He didn’t show a close-up of the front so that buyers could read the lens and shutter type and, by photographing the ‘wrong’ side, we couldn’t tell which model it was. Moral: avoid having to answer questions by showing the essential information in your photos. You know the old saying; ‘a picture is worth a thousand words’. That would be a thousand of your words answering those tiresome questions from all around the world. And it’s no excuse that he didn’t know that there were so many lens/shutter/viewfinder variations because he hadn’t done his research. More about that later.

my 1937 Voigtlander Bessa with f4.5 10.5cm (105mm) 4-element Skopar lens photographed to show the pop-up viewfinder. (click here to see the 7 other variants)

(Note the little ‘brilliant’ viewfinder on the lens assembly. It's an aid to dating a camera. Present on all cameras before the war, no longer there post war.)

Sharp and informative: the close-up of a lens/shutter assembly: 

not so helpful .........     (taken from an listing for a rare and desirable Kodak Regent)

In one sense cameras are like cars. When you buy your Ford Focus or your Nissan Micra (or whatever) you have a choice of engines (1000cc, 1300cc etc) and gearboxes (auto or manual, 4-speed or 5-speed) not to mention all the trim options. And all those variations are reflected in the price. It may be advertised on TV as ‘from £6995’, but you can be sure that the combination we all want is more likely to be £12995!

The Lens:

Kodak 3A’s have 28 variations of lens and shutter.  If the lens is a "Tessar" or "TTH" the buyers want to know! Pre-war Voigtlanders are variously fitted with the 3-element Voigtar, the 4-element Skopar or the 5-element Heliar. (There is also a special 3-element Helomar on the Bessa Rangefinder). After roughly 1951, with the change to colour film, Voigtlanders have Vaskar, Color-Skopar or Color-Heliar.

Agfa's are Agnar, Apotar or Solinar. Pre-war/pre-Agnar was the Igestar.

* Read more about lenses in beedhams guide: "Choosing medium format lenses - what's in a name?"

Coated or un-coated?

The threshold after which lenses were coated is around 1951 (launch of Voigtlanders Bessa I being typical) coinciding with the availability of Kodacolor and other colour films.

Above you can see Xenar lenses both coated and uncoated. Here's another comparison:

Agfa Isolette's Apotar lens
uncoated (grey-blue)	coated (pink/mauve-blue)

The Aperture:

The wider the aperture the better. Hence, the wider the aperture the higher the original price! Manufacturers write it on the lens as a ratio, so look on the lens (around the glass) for 1:3.5 or 1:4.5 or 1:6.3. Photographers, on the other hand,  describe it by it’s ‘f’ number: f3.5, f4.5, f6.3 …… or f2.8 or f1.8 or whatever. In the example above right you can see it reads: Agfa Apotar 1:4.5/85, which a photographer would read as an "85mm f4.5 Apotar lens".

The Shutter:

Pre-war Voigtlander’s shutters can be 3 speed Embezet or 8 speed Compur or, later, the 9-speed Compur-Rapid. But the 1931 Jubilar has a simple un-named 2-speed (presumably Embezet). And, as if to be different, Baby Bessa's (the Bessa 66) and the cheaper model 6x9 Bessa's have a Prontor shutter.

 The great sticking shutter myth:

Agfa Isolette Rangefinder Camera An Agfa Isolette folding camera with a built in rangefinder (i.e. an Isolette III)  Agfa Apotar f4.5 85mm lens in a Prontor-SV shutter All in working order. PLEASE NOTE - After rechecking the camera it was found that the slower speeds are sticking which often happens with old cameras when not used for some time - repeated use or a service will cure this.

 Here's another:

VINTAGE BALDA BALDIX 120 FOLDING CAMERA The 1 second not working due to lack of use.

Lack of use? I doubt it. It's the build-up of crud that's the problem. What we call 'servicing' is mostly about cleaning. As for: "Repeated use will cure this?"  Oh no it won't! 

This is fantasy. Founded in optimism, perhaps. But more likely in  ignorance. Or it's simply sales talk. It's just the thing people say. To be fair, sometimes, just sometimes, if you're really lucky, they do improve. But they'll never return to the indicated speeds. Not that I've ever had such luck. All of mine got progressively worse. The fact is, they stick because the mechanism is old and dirty. Servicing is the only cure. This belongs in the category of "Things to say that make bidders lose confidence". It means you don't know what you're talking about!

It's normal for shutter speeds to be slow. A shutter mechanism has two ranges: 1 sec to 1/25th and 1/50th to 1/300th. The fast range are usually reasonable and may well 'sound right' although, in reality, the 1/300th is probably closer to 1/200th. It's the slow range that's likely to be bad. So, what can you do?

Well, you can roughly time the 1 second by your watch. If it's close - say, roughly 1 second or roughly 1½ seconds, say so. With luck the others will be in line. If the 1 sec doesn't close, try the ½ sec. Often when the 1 sec is stuck, the ½ will often time at around a second (or 1½ or 2 ...... whatever!). Report what you find.

About Agfas in particular

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve asked Agfa Isolette sellers: “Which lens does it have?", "Which shutter does it have?”,  “Does the focus ring turn easily, stiffly or is it stuck?", "Is the bellows shiny plastic or leather?" (leather is rare) and "If plastic, how bad are the splits in the front corners?”

Agfa lenses:

Agfa Isolette’s (6x6 format) (as well their 6x9 siblings, Agfa Records) can have 3-element Agnar or Apotar or the more expensive 4-element Solinar. The affordable version Isolette I has a 3-speed Vario shutter, but the ‘II’ can have Agnar + Pronto, Apotar + 5-speed Pronto, Apotar + 8-speed Prontor-S  or its later variants Prontor-SV or -SVS. Or even (rarely) Synchro-Compur. The desirable Solinar lensed versions are similar, although, being top of the range, not the 5-speed Pronto.

Issue No.1 with Agfa’s: the green grease they used on the focussing hardens with age. This really applies to the early ones as well as pre-war. Nevertheless, buyers like to be reassured, and want to know whether the focussing turns freely or not:  how stiff it is - or if it's stuck. So, if yours is free moving then reassure them by saying so. Some degree of stiff/slow movement is normal. Non-moving isn't the total downer you might think - it can be freed by a courageous owner applying a hair dryer. My uncoated Apotar example, above, is like this.

Warning to anyone attempting this: as it heats up you'll want to keep trying to turn the focussing ring so be warned: the metal gets very hot before the grease melts, so be sure to take hold of it with a cloth or tissue! It's for this reason I like to wrap the camera body in a towel to prevent the body heating up and so protect the hand holding it. Disclaimer: please understand that you or your buyer does this at your/their own risk!  Finally: once freed, be sure to turn it regularly to keep it that way.

Issue No.2 with Agfa’s (Adox too): the use of plastic bellows which split at the corners. There are always holes or splits in the front corners of those plastic bellows. Which is why restorer Jurgen Kreckel (certo6) says every Agfa needs a new bellows. Even if it's okay at the time you buy it, if you use it you'll repeated flex that 50 year old plastic and it will eventually fail. Tiny splits may not be visible. My Adox Golf II has no visible splits, so I was very disappointed to find one in three negatives fogged. Be warned!

Googling for information:

If you know nuffink about cameras, or simply know the name of the camera but nothing more ...... GET MORE! Excuse me for pointing it out but ..... you're sitting in front of a computer! You have the internet ....... so Google for information:

For example: enter Agfa Isolette (or simply 'Isolette') into Google and it returns these:

http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Agfa_Isolette_II

http://www.rolandandcaroline.co.uk/isolettei/isolettei.html (Isolette I)

http://www.rolandandcaroline.co.uk/isoletteii.html (Isolette II)

http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/index-frameset.html?AgfaIsolette.html~mainFrame  (Isolette I)

Search for Voigtlander and you get:  http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Voigtl%C3%A4nder

http://www.cinci.de/unter_bessa.html and http://www.ukcamera.com/classic_cameras/voigt7.htm

I confess I'd previously not heard of these two cameras until I saw them for sale on ebay. But I soon found out something about them:

Foinix Trier  http://snobo.puslapiai.lt/fotografija/aparatai/Foitzik%20Trier.pdf

Gerlach Nixette  http://photocam.ibelgique.com/g.htm

Safe sources of restored or tested folders:

Jurgen Kreckel in the Poconos Mountains of Pennsylania restores 1950's classics and describes many of them: His ebay seller's name is certo6. His informative website: http://www.certo6.com/ .  See his items currently for sale here

ebay seller 'Beedhams' - real name Leslie Gilmore, retired photographer and writer of ebay guides - can be found here.  See his current items for sale here

Example from seller of Voigtlander Bessa 66:   

The seller of the above camera wrote:

"Sorry I can't be much help. This old camera was found in an elderly friend's attic recently. She thinks her father may have used it in the 1940's. ( If anyone knows anything about cameras, bidder or non-bidder, we'd be MOST interested to have information.)

All I can say is that the thing has "Voigtlander" written on the back followed by "Bessa 66".

I really am the look-and-click person. (I'm quite an elderly lady!)"

But, hey there elderly lady ......... Googling 'Bessa 66' gets you:

this: http://mgroleau.com/photo/allemagne/voigtlander/voigt_bessa_66.html

this: http://herron.50megs.com/german-1.htm (need to scroll down 1/3 page)

and this - photos taken with a Bessa 66: http://www.pbase.com/phillbrown/voigtlander_bessa_66&page=2

However, this time the Wikipedia entry is not helpful as it shows the expensive version with the offset viewfinder:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/24225011@N04/2319108893/in/pool-camerapedia

Things to say that make bidders lose confidence:

"To be honest I know squat about any camera that is pre-digital age so I'm describing this to the best of my knowledge."

"I have no idea whether it is working or not ........" (all too often this means the shutter is jammed!)

"the slow speeds are sticking - repeated use will cure this"  (covered this one earlier!)

Agfa vintage camera up for grabs. I don't know anything about such cameras. On the lens it says; 'AGFA - ANASTIGMAT - JGESTAR  - F:8,8' Whatever that means!

 

 

Oh, and one last thing:

Wow!     

Yes, yes, big deal ........ well, actually, no. Because you see, they were all made in Canada.

In the olden days, before there was 'the UK' and 'the EU' (or even just 'Youkay' as we are becoming known around the world), there was Great Britain and its Empire. And goods from the Empire sold in Great Britain suffered no import duty. So, clever Kodak built a factory across the water (i.e. the other side of Lake Ontario) in Toronto to assemble cameras for Great Britain and its Empire so as to avoid that horrendous import duty.

And that's why all the early Kodaks sold in Great Britain have 'MADE IN CANADA' on them.

Which means, in effect, that although it's of interest and appears significant to us, it's something of a self-evident truth. A bit like saying that Nikon is Japanese or Leica is German. It doesn't really need to be said.

So there. I guess you learn something every day!